The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.Mentioned:“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/world/middleeast/gaza-schools-damaged-destroyed.html" target="_blank">With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years</a>” by Liam Stack and Bilal ShbairBook Recommendations:<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/imperialism-sovereignty-and-the-making-of-international-law/8AFA91E6F502B2C4996BB14E1A548E7A" target="_blank">Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law</a> by Antony Anghie<a href="https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=26507" target="_blank">Justice for Some</a> by Noura Erakat<a href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691179155/worldmaking-after-empire" target="_blank">Worldmaking After Empire</a> by Adom Getachew<a href="https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo208177761.html" target="_blank">The Constitutional Bind</a> by Aziz Rana<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/united-nations-and-the-question-of-palestine/E8241B33B6C07028765E5E6785AF5CDE">The United Nations and the Question of Palestine</a> by Ardi ImseisThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.
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The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

Mentioned:

“With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

Book Recommendations:

Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.