A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “<a href="https://open.spotify.com/album/29sozE8XDMOHT8KK9iq4Fo?si=IXuVG21sRXmycIXYs0x-Og" target="_blank">PROTO</a>.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and <a href="https://whitney.org/artists/t6310">visual art</a>, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded <a href="https://spawning.ai/">Spawning</a>, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.Mentioned:“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/1qlqqnNweNXfZPKvr0xcNE?si=8e4b196b26434127">Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://whitney.org/exhibitions/xhairymutantx" target="_blank">xhairymutantx</a>” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/4w9mteu9530jarcqeoZtpl?si=58bfcaa74b884586">Fade</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/2MiZBQWpd6iWt0fyFR0uRC?si=503ff54afea440cc">Swim</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/08miVIoaRwPumjT7io84uZ?si=43f5d08b27904f9b">Jolene</a>” by Holly Herndon and Holly+“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/1rBLFF7bpoojEnza7EjNx6?si=be340888d7c4479b">Movement</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/1xy53q4YBlrjITp2ER0uRN?si=5500c84ddf7740da">Chorus</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/525KnXoHVcXF30vj1C43yi?si=a86a5cccf46b4744">Godmother</a>” by Holly Herndon“<a href="https://open.spotify.com/track/0KEkhpCNsUxGw1OnRQqqI4?si=4006c1bf06444cd4">The Precision of Infinity</a>” by Jlin and Philip Glass<a href="https://holly.plus/">Holly+</a>Book Recommendations:<a href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780997567403/intelligence-and-spirit/" target="_blank">Intelligence and Spirit</a> by Reza Negarestani<a href="https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/adrian-tchaikovsky/children-of-time/9781447273301" target="_blank">Children of Time</a> by Adrian Tchaikovsky<a href="https://www.plurality.net/" target="_blank">Plurality</a> by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ CommunityThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.
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A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

Mentioned:

“Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

“xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

“Fade” by Holly Herndon

“Swim” by Holly Herndon

“Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

“Movement” by Holly Herndon

“Chorus” by Holly Herndon

“Godmother” by Holly Herndon

“The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

Holly+

Book Recommendations:

Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.