Donald Trump can seem like a political anomaly. You sometimes hear people describe his connection with his base in quasi-mystical terms. But really, Trump is an example of an archetype — the right-wing populist showman — that recurs across time and place. There’s Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Boris Johnson in Britain, Javier Milei in Argentina. And there’s a long lineage of this type in the United States too.So why is there this consistent demand for this kind of political figure? And why does this set of qualities — ethnonationalist politics and an entertaining style — repeatedly appear at all?John Ganz is the writer of the newsletter <a href="https://www.unpopularfront.news/" target="_blank">Unpopular Front</a> and the author of the forthcoming book “<a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374605445/whentheclockbroke" target="_blank">When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s</a>.” In this conversation, we discuss how figures like David Duke and Pat Buchanan were able to galvanize the fringes of the Republican Party; Trump’s specific brand of TV-ready charisma; and what liberals tend to overlook about the appeal of this populist political aesthetic.This episode contains strong language.Mentioned:“<a href="https://www.rothbard.it/articles/right-wing-populism.pdf">Right-Wing Populism</a>” by Murray N. Rothbard“<a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/21/the-wave-of-right-wing-populist-sentiment-is-a-myth/">The ‘wave’ of right-wing populist sentiment is a myth</a>” by Larry Bartels“<a href="https://www.slowboring.com/p/how-we-got-here-ce8" target="_blank">How we got here</a>” by Matthew YglesiasBook Recommendations:<a href="https://global.oup.com/academic/product/what-hath-god-wrought-9780195078947" target="_blank">What Hath God Wrought?</a> by Daniel Walker Howe<a href="https://www.pennpress.org/9780812251647/after-nationalism/" target="_blank">After Nationalism</a> by Samuel Goldman<a href="https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520026261/the-politics-of-cultural-despair" target="_blank">The Politics of Cultural Despair</a> by Fritz R. SternThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
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Donald Trump can seem like a political anomaly. You sometimes hear people describe his connection with his base in quasi-mystical terms. But really, Trump is an example of an archetype — the right-wing populist showman — that recurs across time and place. There’s Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Boris Johnson in Britain, Javier Milei in Argentina. And there’s a long lineage of this type in the United States too.

So why is there this consistent demand for this kind of political figure? And why does this set of qualities — ethnonationalist politics and an entertaining style — repeatedly appear at all?

John Ganz is the writer of the newsletter Unpopular Front and the author of the forthcoming book “When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s.” In this conversation, we discuss how figures like David Duke and Pat Buchanan were able to galvanize the fringes of the Republican Party; Trump’s specific brand of TV-ready charisma; and what liberals tend to overlook about the appeal of this populist political aesthetic.

This episode contains strong language.

Mentioned:

“Right-Wing Populism” by Murray N. Rothbard

“The ‘wave’ of right-wing populist sentiment is a myth” by Larry Bartels

“How we got here” by Matthew Yglesias

Book Recommendations:

What Hath God Wrought? by Daniel Walker Howe

After Nationalism by Samuel Goldman

The Politics of Cultural Despair by Fritz R. Stern

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

The Rise of ‘Middle-Finger Politics’