In 2016, when Donald Trump won the first time, a little-known book became an unexpected phenomenon. It was “<a href="https://press.stripe.com/the-revolt-of-the-public" target="_blank">The Revolt of the Public</a>,” self-published two years earlier by a former C.I.A. media analyst, Martin Gurri. Gurri, who is now a visiting research fellow at the Mercatus Center, argued that a revolution in how information flowed was driving political upheavals in country after country: The dynamics of modern media ecosystems naturally created distrust toward institutions and elites, and this was fueling waves of revolt against the status quo. The problem, though, was that though these dynamics could destroy existing political systems, they could not build enduring replacements.Gurri’s book has been on my mind over the past year. In some ways, it explains 2024 better than it explains 2016. But time didn’t just change Gurri’s book; it changed Gurri. After refusing to cast a ballot for president in 2016 and 2020, he voted for Donald Trump in 2024. And in his writing for The Free Press, The New York Post and elsewhere, he’s been arguing that Trump’s second term might herald the mastery of this new informational world and the emergence of an enduring new political system.I found myself more convinced by Gurri’s old theory than his new one. So I asked him on the show to talk about it.(Also: If you’re interested in joining Ezra Klein on his book tour in March and April, you can see the stops and get tickets for the events here: <a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/p/abundance-tour" target="_blank">https://www.simonandschuster.com/p/abundance-tour</a>)Book Recommendations:<a href="https://human-as-media.com/the-book-postjournalism/" target="_blank">Postjournalism and the Death of Newspapers</a> by Andrey Mir.<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Why-Most-Things-Fail-Extinction/dp/0470089199" target="_blank">Why Most Things Fail</a> by Paul Ormerod<a href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691178707/not-born-yesterday?srsltid=AfmBOoqveBP-NhWgRihBLd4TxN8YXk-Zx5dM1Hmtzpd8zQzqHlyxX6V3" target="_blank">Not Born Yesterday</a> by Hugo MercierThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" target="_blank">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Elias Isquith, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio.
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In 2016, when Donald Trump won the first time, a little-known book became an unexpected phenomenon. It was “The Revolt of the Public,” self-published two years earlier by a former C.I.A. media analyst, Martin Gurri. Gurri, who is now a visiting research fellow at the Mercatus Center, argued that a revolution in how information flowed was driving political upheavals in country after country: The dynamics of modern media ecosystems naturally created distrust toward institutions and elites, and this was fueling waves of revolt against the status quo. The problem, though, was that though these dynamics could destroy existing political systems, they could not build enduring replacements.

Gurri’s book has been on my mind over the past year. In some ways, it explains 2024 better than it explains 2016. But time didn’t just change Gurri’s book; it changed Gurri. After refusing to cast a ballot for president in 2016 and 2020, he voted for Donald Trump in 2024. And in his writing for The Free Press, The New York Post and elsewhere, he’s been arguing that Trump’s second term might herald the mastery of this new informational world and the emergence of an enduring new political system.

I found myself more convinced by Gurri’s old theory than his new one. So I asked him on the show to talk about it.

(Also: If you’re interested in joining Ezra Klein on his book tour in March and April, you can see the stops and get tickets for the events here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/p/abundance-tour)

Book Recommendations:

Postjournalism and the Death of Newspapers by Andrey Mir.

Why Most Things Fail by Paul Ormerod

Not Born Yesterday by Hugo Mercier

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Elias Isquith, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio.

A Theory of Media That Explains 15 Years of Politics